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Shauday-e-Lal Masjid Conference
submitted 1 month 15 days 19 hours ago by: Babarzm : 239 comments
The News: Extra-ordinary security arrangements were made for holding a
“Shauday-e-Lal Masjid Conference” in Lal Masjid here in Islamabad today
(Sunday).
Barbed wire fences have been stretched in and around
roads leading to the masjid whereas bomb disposable squad has also been
called for.
Police sources told that these notable security measures would have to prevent any possible terrorist attack.
Clerics belonging to numerous religious parties and MNAs would be attending the conference.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=49026
Question: Can these lunatics be called "Shaheed"?
Comments
What I would really like to know is what in the name of heaven were they fighting for?
by using the word "lunatics", can we expect from you that u will accept a logical explanation for proving them shaheed?.... dont ask people for questions when u already have made a mentality against someone/something.
They are Shaheed....... and it can be proved easily by any scholar.
They gave their lives for Islam......and finishing adultery and other bad sins.......
u wont understand if you are "engulfed" by the media to which normal pakistanis listen....
You won't understand because your source of information is only limited to the same ignorant Mullah.
Plant a tree
A muslim killing a muslim or innocents is never a shaheed
I can't say if they were Shaheed or not, but the whole affair could definitely be handled ina much better way. There is no doubt on it being an unjust (not sure if I should use this word or uncalled-for) killing.
How conveniently we forget about the provocative acts of these miscreants, as if they were not firing at police & paramilitary. Can we let these crooks hijack our cities? It troubles me when people actually favor them in opposition to the state of Pakistan.
Plant a tree
@ Babar
I am not favouring them or anything even close. Trust me the feeling of disgust at these acts of violence in the name of religion is mutual. But having said that, does it really mean that you also hold up your guns and start shooting at whatever comes in the way.
I am sure, just like there are many bad faces in the public service along with a few good ones, not all of these Mullahs think the same. There must be few that are against the suicide killings, but are brain washed to the extent that it stops functioning on its own. So keeping that in mind, I feel there was a need for a better solution to the issue.
Is there a better solution? Attempts to talk have already failed
Plant a tree
Our society is so polarized now that its almost Us vs Them scenario. YOu call tehm lunatics and they call you infidels.
The best solution would be to start 1- political dialogue, 2- less military action, 3- more clergy involvement to bring fore the point that human life is sacred. All combined.
Postman,
We have already tried that. Last 4-6 yrs were full of failed negotiations and flawed agreements. Somebody please please please think about victims of suicide bombings. Next time it can be you or some loved one. How many more ordinary Pakistani have to die before our public can make up our mind on these lunatic killers.
Plant a tree
Babar: "How many more ordinary Pakistani have to die before our public can make up our mind on these lunatic killers."
How many innocent 'pakistanis' are going to die in troubled areas by security personnel and american bombing?
Just what the forrestry wants is beyond my ken! And I am not blonde. :)
Postman,
Although I am not willing to accept your justification for killing innocent Pakistani citizens by suicide bombs for what 'may' or 'may not' be happening in tribal Pakistan, but only for the sake of argument:
1- Bring the numbers and make comparison.
2- Why should Pakistani people pay price for what America is doing in Iraq, Afghanistan or in tribal Pakistan? Or what Al-Qaida & Taliban are doing in Afghanistan.
3- Our tribes are not as innocent as you may like to think. They are much worst actually.
Plant a tree
Where on earth did I give justification for killings?! I only wanted to pointed out the fact that tribal people are Pakistanis too! their lives are as precious as the ones that are in Islamabad!
Babar: "1- Bring the numbers and make comparison."
How unfortunate is that fact that media is not at all allowed a complete coverage of tribal areas. Then you'd know how many have lost their lives there.
Babar:" 2- Why should Pakistani people pay price for what America is doing in
Iraq, Afghanistan or in tribal Pakistan? Or what Al-Qaida & Taliban
are doing in Afghanistan."
Absolutely. Why should ANY pakistani (be it the one in tribal areas or settleed ones) should pay the price!
Babar: "3- Our tribes are not as innocent as you may like to think. They are much worst actually."
They are not as worst as you think. Your Frontier Corp officers are currently siding now with militants to remove other militants.
Postman, been there done that; you may as well bang your head against a wall
We are following america and helping him in killing muslims. We should not help america in killing muslims. we should take a principle stand and we should convince all world that america is not doing right.
In current situation, mujahideen are not happy with govt of pakistan. Govt of pakistan has a very controvercial position. Pak army and america has killed a lot of innocent children and people in pakistan. This also caused high anger in their relatives. Such angry people can be missused by any american, israaelee, indian or pakistani agency. Sucide bombing in pakistan is not agendaa of mujahideen. But this is due to wrong policies of Govt of Pakistan. Govt is giving full chance to anti pakistan elements to destroy the peace of pakistan.
It is my opinion that when some body wants to kill my family members than it is very shameful to help him in killing my father, mother, brother and sisters etc. But Pakistan is doing the same thing by helping america. I think death is better than such life. so pakistan should raise the flag of humanity and moral values and should not follow america.
Postman: "How unfortunate is that fact that media is not at all allowed a complete coverage of tribal areas. Then you'd know how many have lost their lives there"
If media is not allowed then how come you know that many lives lost there?
Postman" Frontier Corp officers are currently siding now with militants to remove other militants"
These first ones are also the product of our previous engagements with militants a.k.a first Afghan Jihad. What is the guarantee that that the ones which are siding us now will not turn against us 10 years from now. Why are we arming our future trouble.
These are crazy uneducated people and we already know what happens when we arm and train them to wage the so called "Jihad"
Plant a tree
Babar: "If media is not allowed then how come you know that many lives lost there?"
I am not 'counting' here! I am more concerned with loss of innocent precious lives in ANY area of Pakistan!
Babar: "What is the guarantee that that the ones which are siding us now will
not turn against us 10 years from now. Why are we arming our future
trouble."
Exactly! why the hell are we so indecisivce in setting our priorities and and policies!
Babar:"These are crazy uneducated people and we already know what happens when we arm and train them to wage the so called "Jihad""
Uneducated people are always exploited by the learned few! Why cant we use them to our 'benefit'?! Why do we have to make it a point that we are 'not your friends'...?!
Postman: Why cant we use them to our 'benefit'?! Why do we have to make it a point that we are 'not your friends'
Sooner or later someone will have to clean the dirty laundry of our past (i.e.Afghan Jihad). I prefer now instead of leaving it for my children. Not necessarily means killing all of them. Education and prosperity should be offered to those who are willing to lay off arms others should be treated with iron fist.
& that is also my argument in support for Lal mosque operation. Those who wanted to leave were given this opportunity those who wanted to fight paid price. We can't let bunch of lunatics dictate on our choice of lifestyle.
Plant a tree
Lal mosque could have been handled much better than the stupid antics of Musharraf in which his only desire was to portray them as 'fanatics' to the worlds. And the idiots the medressah people are.. they fell in to the trap.
Fanatic: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.
According to dictionary definition these guys are 'fanatics'. How would you otherwise define their acts? Burning shops, hijacking people etc.
Plant a tree
& lets not forget all the arms and suicide bombings.
Plant a tree
no body is forgetting that. But branding every tribal a lunatic is unjustified.
Not tribals but lal mosque mullahs
Plant a tree
my apologies...
Ghazi Rashid and his cohorts had other agendas. Understand that there were countless innocents too.
How many innocents do you think were killed that day? What were these innocents doing in there when everyone else left the mosque?
Plant a tree
Law enforcers under Musharraf exactly acted like fanatics too. They had to be portrayed as such to the world and thats what they did too.
Of course there is no dearth of morons on religious side who burn up shops and kidnapping people. Equally fanatics.
Musharraf may have done other wrongs but this operation was completely justified. This is one act that I fully support Musharraf or no Musharraf.
I think we should raise beyond personalities on principle issues.
Plant a tree
Lal Mosque was totally mishandled. Absolute blunder. Govt deliberately stayed back and took no decision for action. The morons and idiots of Lal Mosque got emboldened and acted the way it had to be portrayed to the world.
We killed our own innocent people just for the appeasement of others and telling them only "I can handle them".. pathetic to say the least.
I agree, these guys should have been stopped much earlier. I however doubt that any innocent was killed that day. Secondly, this operation and any other operation against fanatic mullah is good for the sake of our own Nation. We don't want these fanatics to make Pakistan another Afghanistan.
If you don't mind me asking, would you like to live under Taliban style government?
Plant a tree
Babar: "If you don't mind me asking, would you like to live under Taliban style government?"
Thats the whole problem Babar :)
Anyone opposing strict action against religious elements is taken to be siding with Taliban! Ordinary citizens of North hate Taliban! they even hated the MMA led government! So if anyone is telling you to use your head instead of nuts - do listen to them!
Babar: "I however doubt that any innocent was killed that day."
Unfortunate then. You only hear what you want to hear.
Babar: "Secondly, this operation and any other operation against fanatic mullah
is good for the sake of our own Nation. We don't want these fanatics to
make Pakistan another Afghanistan."
Be creative for heavens sake! and dont seek only the gun solution and slogans of wiping them out!
Postman: Anyone opposing strict action against religious elements is taken to be
siding with Taliban! Ordinary citizens of North hate Taliban! they even
hated the MMA led government!
All my references were pointed at Lal mosque mullahs. I have nothing against tribes or others living in North.
Postman: Unfortunate then. You only hear what you want to hear.
I am interested in a. your definition for innocent b. any substantial proof for mass scale innocent killings (not interest in what media mavericks are saying)
Postman: Be creative for heavens sake! and dont seek only the gun solution and slogans of wiping them out!
I never said gun or wiping anyone out. Only support "Iron fist" - it may or may not include gun but definitely include very harsh diplomacy. Having said that, Lal mosque mullah left no other option for Pak-rangers beside using force.
Plant a tree
Babar: "All my references were pointed at Lal mosque mullahs. I have nothing against tribes or others living in North."
Its the ideology. Both share the same.
Babar: "I am interested in a. your definition for innocent"
All the parents that had come to find their children who had come to Lal Mosque for studying Quran and Sunnah and had disappeared. I still remember the images of a father who was giving interview and tears were running down his cheek cuz his daughter was missing.
Babar:"b. any substantial proof for mass scale innocent killings"
None whatsoever. But I do know that Govt bullshits (every govt for that matter) when it says only militants were attacked.
Babar: "Lal mosque mullah left no other option for Pak-rangers beside using force."
Ridiculous. There was no sincerity in Govt effort anwyays.
So we should release all criminals because their parents must have cried when they were punished.
Plant a tree
1. Lal masjid people were not criminal because they worked for betterment of society of pakistan. They worked against prosecution and other big evils. This is totally wrong information that they ever destoyed CDs shops. Lal masjid people actually wanted that they should be no evil things in islamabad which are dangerous for society.
2. I want to make on thing clear that they were not targetting people on ideological basis. They were not having any negative agendaa against liberal or secular people. Please don't be impressed by wrong information of govt agencies. They were 100% pure muslims but having a stiff and weak planning against evil things. Due to their weakness on the media side, Govt succeeded in proving them controvercial and targetted them in a very brutal way.
3. Although Lal masjid people were following unbalanced approach, which was not successful in current world but they were true lovers of islam. Due to their commitment with islam, more than two thousand men and women accepted death but didn't left molana ghazi.
It is my request that if some body thinks that i am not on right track. Please give clarification against these three points.
Regards
Saqib : "Lal masjid people were not criminal because they worked for betterment of society of pakistan."
some light years away from reality. What they wanted was to have their own governance and power.
"They were 100% pure muslims" .."Although Lal masjid people were following unbalanced approach.. but they were true lovers of islam."
So are other people whom they batton charged and whose stuff they burnt. Never portray yourself as righteous or your'll be doomed.
"I want to make on thing clear that they were not targetting people on
ideological basis. They were not having any negative agendaa against
liberal or secular people."
They were clearly working on the ideology that they were 'righteous', that they had the authority to purge society of ills and that the rest are damn idiots.
Babar you are stuck with the notion that 'everyone' there was a militant.
I like your response to Saqib's post. You surely have my vote for Buzzvine elections ;)
Plant a tree
Please don't shape ur thinking or don't write without facts.
I want to clear one thing that they were not actually interested in power. Fact is that they requested the govt that big evils should be finished from islamabad. But govt didn't took action against evils. So they took action against evils on their own. If govt is not able to take action against evils and lal masjid can take action against evils than they may be given government, because of their commitment to society. What is wrong with this? I already informed that they were not having any violent, extreme or negaitve agenda against liberal or secular people. If some body uses his powers for reducing evils than he has right to increase his power and he should go forward. Then it depends on planning and strategy that what success will be achieved. Lal masjid people were weak in this area, so they were not successful. But we can't say them wrong on the basis if they failed to get immediate success.
I already told that this is wrong information that lal masjid people damaged property or shops of any body. It is still not proved from reliable sources. Lal masjid were having a clear agenda and they accepted all steps which they taken against prosecution but they never accepted the blame of destroying business of any body. So this is illogical to say that they destroyed shops or attacked common man. Please follow the proved facts.
I want to explain again that they targetted only Prostitution. They never targetted common man. If u think that Prostitution is good and it is not damaging for society than you have right to say any thing
Brother Saqib.
Consider this. 'I' do not agree with what you are saying. 'I' ask someone to stop you fromssaying so. You dont listen. 'I' am forced to take my baton out and smash your head. 'I' gather like minded people like me and form a group. If I see someone enforcing his thoughts which I dont like.. I'll burn up their material and chase them away like hell.
How does that sound?
You dont get to form your own 'danda' wielding force just that what you are saying is not getting positive attention.
What gives them the right to take action against 'evil' by themselves, especially the kind of 'action' they took?
Kindly read
http://www.kashifhafeez.com/mazameen_large.php?path=2008-07-10&img=kh_articles/large/2008-07-10.gif
Yes if selling music CD and running a massage center is "big evil".
Sorry saqibrauf but I do not agree with your definition of big evil
Plant a tree
Babar It seems that u r not reading my comments and explanations. Actually you r not having true information. Please read my all comments. For reference i m repeating
"/
I already told that this is wrong information that lal masjid people damaged property or shops of any body. It is still not proved from reliable sources. Lal masjid were having a clear agenda and they accepted all steps which they taken against prosecution but they never accepted the blame of destroying business of any body. So this is illogical to say that they destroyed shops or attacked common man. Please follow the proved facts.
I want to explain again that they targetted only Prostitution. They never targetted common man. If u think that Prostitution is good and it is not damaging for society than you have right to say any thing
/"
It is a proven fact and every body knows in islambad that in 500 rupees u can get massage from a chinese lady on ur whole body and in 500 rupees u can have sex and again in 500 rupees u will be provided beer. Massage center was actually center of protitution. So I can say with full responsibilityt that Massage center was big evil.
For your kind information, massage center ( for men by women ) is illegal in Pakistan and China.
You can do 'anything' imaginable in Pakistan bro Saqib.
What you should do is to write against these ills of the society, provide better solutions for it, help the girls caugfht in this racket of prostitution. The method employed by Lal Masjid was the most un-imaginative of all but it got the attention! and thats what Lal Masjid people wanted. Attention that they are the 'savious' of Islam.
Pathetic!
Post man:
This is the thing which i want actually to tell u that Lal masjid saved a lot of women from hands of such crupt and criminal hands. All girls who contacted Lal masjid in order to get freedom from criminal prostitue gangs. They got 100% success. When some girl got help of Lal masjid, Anti shameem and other protitutes were not having courage to contact or use that girl for their evil business. Lal masjid was a challange for criminal prostitute gangs.
There were three causes of lal masjid operation
1. Pressure of protitutes of islamabad on all govt people. You can easily imagine how did protitues get success in developing pressure on govt machinery.
2. Pressure of America. Because America wants to kill all true lovers of islam.
3. Musharaf is a Exteremist and he want to destroy true shape of islam because of his personal interests and hobies ( which are totally un islamic ). Musharaf thinks that he should shape islam as per his personal desires. Musharaf is mentally retarded against true teachings of islam
4. Pressure of extemist elements from liberal circles. Such extermist elements have no ability to make an opinion on the basis of facts. They want to live their lives with out any bindings. They feel very pain when they are asked to follow islam. If you ask them to follow islam even in a very sweet and peaceful way, they become hot and unbalanced and will behave you in a very improper way.
5. Total failure of political and religious leadership.
Lal Masjid method is not an ideal. But they are better than people who have no interest in finishing evils.
Lal masjid people verbally asked many times aunti shameem to finish his evil business and tried their best to solve the issue peacefully.
One day female students of lal masjid visited home of aunti shameem. She started quarreling with students and tried to tear their clothes, which resulted in a big clash. Male students get involved and Auti shameem was made hostage. She was not given any violent or improper treatment by Jamia Hafaza women during time she was made hostage. But in returm, Musharaf killed hundereds of jamia hafza students by Phosphorous bombs.
It seems that Aunti shameem had regretted to supply girls to influential people. Therefore this brutal operation was done in order to retain supply of girls for sex.
I appreciate Lal masjid people for rescuing the girls - 'if they did it'.
Lal Masjid operation was totally wrong and blatant use of state machinery. If I were in charge, I might have not used the lethal force against them but surely would have made a lesson out of those brain washed guys and gals of seminary. 'No Body' has the right to create a parallel admnistration that only leads to chaos.
Islamic system is just bullshit! all they want is their own power! and since they cant come through ballot box so they just try to religiously blackmail ordinary pakistani citizens.
PostMan
You are giving comments on the basis of ur own perception. Please follow the facts. It is fact that they only tegetted prostitution. They were not shown any voilent or negative agenda gainst common man or liberal people.
Please be realistic.