Is Pakistan more Islamic then what Islam itself is?
submitted 1 year 2 months 21 hours ago by: Babarzm : 40 comments
We punish adulter by stoning to death while Islam only demand to marry adulter with an adulteress and some lashes at most if proven guilty.
We punished rape victim by stoning them to death, unless she can produce 4 adult Muslim witnesses to prove her innocence.
We let murderers get away with crimes for as long as they appear Islamic. Kill in the name of Islam and get away with murders.
We ask women to cover head to toe while Islam only ask of them to cover specific body parts.
We have declared alcohol Haraam or forbidden when Islam only has called consumption as bad. Never declaring it Haraam, hence punishment for alcohol in Pakistan of 80 lashes is completely unjustified.
All of this and other such makes one think, Is Pakistan more Islamic then what Islam itself is?
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Comments
islamic punishments are only applicable when a society is well convinced and trainign done on islamic standard. Like PBUH never pinished any one untill he had convinced them
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1-Stonning is proved by PBUH and all nobel references are available for it. By the way whom you seen being stonned in pakistan, offically or unofficially????
2-Rappist should must be killed, it is not told in quran but it is a scial measure to halt these kind of crime. like is life time preisonment mentioned in quran for a murderer??? it is not mentioned but we are doign so as social measure to halt this crime.
3-if murderers are gettign away with crime then it is not islam's fault ...it is fault of system and our system is not islamic. we are following british ammended system.
4-PBUH toild what "satar" is and that "satar" is specified for men and women. Hiding face is personal choice and all Imam sahiban are agreed that hiding face is Afzal but if it is opened then not a Sin.
5-I had qouted you ayat of Surah-e-maida where Allah discussed intoxicent where "devotion of arrows" beign discussed.....isnt it a proof that Allah thinks it much intensed thing???
Next ayat says "it will keep you away from your God, so will you not abstain from taht thing??"
now what you want that God should say it by your name that Mr babar dont take alcohal?????
PBUH given 40 leashed to a person who took intoxicent. It is not mentione din Quran but it was doen by PBUH to protect society froma social evil.
There is another dimension to it Mianjee.. the issue with this judgment of court is that whether a specific punishment enshrined currently in the constitution is stated in the Quran. Alcohol has no punishment specified in Quran.
If as a social measure, a society wants punishment set for Alcohol consumption, it can perfectly do so through parliament. If parliament decides that there will be 40 lashes for alcohol consumption, so be it BUT it will be a collective decision of the population which is NOT mentioned in Quran.
1- No one stoned to death in Pakistan does not make the provision justified or Islamic. I will appreciate if you can provide Quranic reference to substantiate stoning and not just hearsay.
2- Rape victim (person being raped) and not rapist in punished in Pakistan.
4- Quran only require to cover the private parts. If you consider Muftis and Imams holier then the holy book then its not my problem.
5- Your conclusion is completely wrong as I have demonstrated that in Quran things those are Haraam are clearly declared as such, while alcohol is not declared Haraam anywhere in Quran. Again if your Mufti has declared it Haraam does not make his words Davine.
Plant a tree
POSTMAN: you are right, as parliamnet is "soverign" now so it should be approved from parliament, otherwise it can be continued because PBUH did so, we beleive that PBUH as a prophet cant be wrong,
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BABARZ:
1-i am not trying to make it islamic, PBUH was administrator of that time and stonnign was an administrative decision. similalry as PBUH ordered for 70 leashes if some one false accused..it is not mentioned in quran but PBUH ordered that to protect respect of people.
2-here what you saying is not concerned with islam, it is concerned to current system.
4- see what below ayat says about veil.how can you say that it says only to cover private parts.
"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies (when abroad) so that they should be known and not molested" (Quran 33:59).
"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (Quran 24:30,31
5- i dont find it not clear, quran clearly tells to abstain it ,what else you require? Moreover PBUH's wording is most respected thing after quran, Sahi bukhari is the most authentic book of ahadiths....
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1-seee below ahadith
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 5.631 Narrated byAbi Burda That Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari said that the Prophet had sent him to Yemen and he asked the Prophet about certain (alcoholic) drink which used to be prepared there. The Prophet said, "What are they?" Abu Musa said, "Al-Bit' and Al-Mizr?" He said, "Al-Bit is an alcoholic drink made from honey; and Al-Mizr is an alcoholic drink made from barley." The Prophet said, "All intoxicants are prohibited."
2-Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 6.144 Narrated byAnas The alcoholic drink which was spilled was Al-Fadikh. I used to offer alcoholic drinks to the people at the residence of Abu Talha. Then the order of prohibiting alcoholic drinks was revealed, and the Prophet ordered somebody to announce that. Abu Talha said to me, "Go out and see what this voice (this announcement ) is." I went out and (on coming back) said, "This is somebody announcing that alcoholic beverages have been prohibited." Abu Talha said to me, "Go and spill it (i.e. the wine)." Then it (alcoholic drinks) was seen flowing through the streets of Medina. At that time the wine was Al-Fadikh. The people said, "Some people (Muslims) were killed (during the battle of Uhud) while wine was in their stomachs." So Allah revealed: "On those who believe and do good deeds there is no blame for what they ate (in the past)." (5.93)
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we should not make things suspecious in order to make it halal for our self. There are clear things in quran and hadiths and those who beleive in Imams can see their statements.
it is is amazing that you beleive in wahabi-sunni but you dont beleive in Imam sahiban....
1- Says who?
2- That's my whole point, we pretend to be more Islamic then Islam itself require of us. What a petty.
4- I have already discussed the issue in detail:
http://www.buzzvines.com/quranic-dress-code-women-what-muslim-women-can-and-can-not-wear
5- Sahi bukhari was written at least 100 hundred years after Prophet's death. This means, for at least 4 generations these traditions were passed on as word of mouth. I don't see how such a methodology can be trusted.
If Sahi bukhari is so good then how come Shia Muslims do not consider it as true Hadith?
If its not in Quran then its not a divine requirement.
Plant a tree
1- what does this "says who" means????
2-for history the time gap is never an issue as greek roman history and about arstotle we beleibe that history which was written far after that era and we think it authentic.
then why when it comes to islam which is matter of just 1400 years ago , we get lame excuses to create a "benefit of doubt"
if shias dont accept sahi bukhari then we should consider that the 1st time written document was produced after more than 100 years of kurbala incident..why they beleive it?
moreover non-shia muslims are majoirty in the world and they beleive in sahi bukhari
History is build on hard historical evidences and not on hear say like in case of our Hadith.
This is why no two individuals agree on any one Hadith tradition. There is one Prophet Muhammad according to Shia traditions, a very different Prophet Muhammad according to Sunnie traditions and entirely different Prophet Muhammad according to the neutral historians.
Which one Prophet Muhammad was the real Prophet Muhammad? As you may have known, if not, let me tell you that all Hadith were written between Shai-Sunnie civil wars. Both sides painted Prophets life to match their interpretation of Islam. Both probably wrong and corrupted.
If there is any Divine text in Islam that is Quran. It is God words and not that of a mortal (possibly corrupted) humans who wrote Hadith. But also because it was written in direct supervision of Prophet Muhammad and was than compiled just after he died. Not many chances or errors or corruptions there
Plant a tree
babar: when you couldnot make your point so you started making hadith suspecious. For you kind information Imam Bukhari who gathered ahadith in sahi bukhari was not a product of Sunni-Shia civil war.
you are so ignorent that you dont know the abbasies and ummwies both were non-shia. these were two familes which were fighting for family kingdom so it has nothign to do with islam.
it is hight of hypocracy that we follow Nikah method and other methods as were explained in hadith,but when it comes to implement on ourself then we get lame excuse.
how you and me came to know about prayers??? ofcourse it is via peopel and people through heart by heart...why you beleive them????
hadith has a strong chriteria so the books which are with weak references are not included in Saha-sitta.
So dont go so far to negate the importance of teh hadith.
it is a lame reason that hadith was not written in PBUH time, was it possible that PBUH dictatign everything???? or He should has said that plz bring pencil copy i am goign to speak?????
Hazrat ayesha, hazrat abu-huraira, hazrat ali all are refree of ahadith and we all beleive that they are honest , respectable and nobel...how can we deny their references????
with each hadith whole ladder is available that who said to whom and who said to whom
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if you need hard fact of each thing ...how you beleive that satin is there????
hwo you beleive that Adam was our father???
hwo you beleive that you are from same father who is nwo in your family????
you beleive it because your mum is noble, and thsoe who told all above things are noble.
no DNA test available
Lets talk about prayers than. Does Shia and Sunnies offer prayers exactly the same way at the same time? And Nikha, is the Nikha same? And Caliphates, are they same?
Nothing is same between Shia and Sunnies except Quran.
I rest my case your honor :oD
Plant a tree
brother, I will not go so far to say any of them wrong, if they are doing different ofcourse they will have a proof of that. Ask shiaz and sunniz, both say that they offer prayers as PBUH did. None of them say that they are doign as their Imam did.
logically, for a matter i will consult quran because it is God's word. If i dont find a clear guidence(because of my limited knowledge or limited vision and wisdom), ofcourse i will see the act of that person with whom quran was revealed. then come the other people like scholars or Imam kiram or myself if i think myself able to conclude that.
if we want to create a trouble then ofcourse we can make a problem that which foot should be put in washroom but if we want to follow islam we can have guidence easily
moreover, I didnt find any shia, sunni, wahabi who say that intoxicents are allowed or acceptable. they all beleive that it is prohabited and as PBUH, Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Umer thought it strictly prohabited so we should abstain.
& I agree but the punishment of alcohol consumption in Pakistan was that of Haraam. Since Quran does not declare it Haraam hence the punishment is wrong.
Plant a tree
Mianjee,
If alcohol is forbidden and haraam and despicable, then why does the quran talk of rivers of wine in paradise ?
hehe! why do you always take out the negative when its not needed :)
Its one of the 'gifts' in paradise.Its not one of those drinks that 'causes problems'.
52:22 - And We shall bestow on them, of fruit and meat, anything they shall desire.
52:23 - They shall there exchange, one with another, a cup free of frivolity,
free of all taint of ill
We over do the over doing, this is the topic of debate here.
The point we are trying to make is that punishment of 80 lashes for alcohol consumption is completely out of line.
Firstly, Islam doesn't prescribe any such punishment.
Secondly, Its none of state's business to intervene ever if it does.
Topic of course is wider then simple alchol consumption but it serve a good example for our debate.
Plant a tree
Dear Brother Postman,
For your information and entertainment :-)
047.015
YUSUFALI: (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
PICKTHAL: A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels?
SHAKIR: A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder.
Thank you very much brother befair for your 'entertainment'. Now what did I miss? or you dint get?
PostmanBhai,
I thought you were denying the existence of "rivers of wine" in your paradise - that's why i listed out the related verses. Interesting contradiction there: Alcohol discouraged on earth while rivers of the same liquid flow in paradise !
No contradiction whatsoever. 'Alcohol' IS discouraged because for what it causes. There will be 'delicious drink' for dwellers of paradise which will cause no ill-effects as the ones that do on earth.
Lol! the drink with "no ills" is in 52:23 whereas 47:15 specifically talks of wine. Although the context in 52:23 leads us to believe that it is wine, it does not specifically say so.
In the same breath, let me ask you another question:
What ill effects attributable to wine/alcohol (on earth) are you talking about that will not be there in paradise ? intoxication itself or just the hangover ?
No where does the Quran state 'what' drink it is.. it always talks about the 'ill effects' of these drinks when it comes to avoiding them. The reason is simple, according to Quran, the devil wants to create hatred and animosity amongst you (5:91).
In paradise, everything is in terms of 'gifts'. Pure companions, Unpolluted waters, fresh milk, honey and drink which will casue no ill-effect.
Please look at 47:15 listed above. This one specifically talks of wine
And could you also tell me what "ill effects" are you talking about here ? is intoxication itself an ill effect or is it the hangover which is an ill effect ?
Ill effects are the actions that a sane person would not do. Like DUI for example. When you lose your senses then you do not usually end up doing nice acts. Its just like gambling. As the Quran says (2:219), there are good things in it (gambling and intoxicants) and there are bad things in it but their bad-things outweigh the good things.
It does not specifically mention 'wine'. Even if it did, we are told that they will cause no ill-effects. So not the intoxicant but what it does.
lol 47:15 clearly mentions "wine" or "Amrin" in arabic
And it is funny that you should say "even if it did, we are told that it will cause no ill effects" - meaning no intoxication ! what point is it in drinking any alcoholic drink if it doesnt cause intoxication ? just like taking the sweetness out of sugar crystals would leave them absolutely useless and unworthy of being called sugar! so what is the drink in paradise called by the quran as "wine" - could it be coca cola ?
C'mon postman, do you really expect me to believe that you dont understand what I am saying ? take the veil off your eyes and recognize things as they are - I'm sure you see them, but are simply refusing to recognize them
brother seriously. I cant find the word 'amrin'. The word is 'khamr' - which in arabic means 'to cover'. In 5:91, 2:219 its is used in the negative connotation that it will make you loose senses. In 47:15 its in a positive sense. Check the other words too, 'unpolluted water', milk whose taste will never change, pure honey in the same verse. How can it be potrayed in a negative sense when others gifts are positive? The 'drink' will have no ill-effects in paradise.
Its very clear to me brother. And same advice to you too that you gave me.
How does "to cover" appear in the positive and negative sense when we are talking about drinks ? can you please post your translation of that verse 47:15 and point out to me the word in question ("khamr")
Very interesting point befair :o)
Plant a tree
cant say about whther alcohol is haram or not BUT its true that modern day islam has become much more strict and fundamentalist than it was 300 yrs ago.
people say that quran is the only holy book that has survived alterations unlike bible, jews book etc. but they fail to see the possibility that the interpretations may have changed several faces over 1500 yrs!
every muslim ruler or popular cleric in every era in every state, since birth of islam, pushed the interpretations that suited their agenda. and then substatntiated with the hadis and quranic verses etc that complimented those interpretations. for eg holy sufi mohammad of the TSNM, if able to overtake swat could have made his own following and who knows 50 yrs from now we would have had another sect of islam called .....sufi mohammdis....not wahabis, not deobandis, not barelvis, not shias but sufi-mohammadis.
so thats how islam has evolved over 1500 yrs yet muslims dare not question the extremely strict saudi type interpretations that they are following and consider them universal truth. ppl fail to recognize how islam has evolved over the 1500 yrs.
"People dare not question" - that precisely is the problem that has prevented Islam from evolving for the better, or rather, proved conducive to islam evolving for the worse.
Absolutely correct
Transliteration of 47:15.. and I now got it the word you were referring to. You were actually quoting the latter portion of word.
47:15 - ... waanharun min 'khamrin' laththatin lilshsharibeen ... and rivers of delicious wine,
As I said, the root word is 'khamr' which means 'to cover'. All the translators usually translate it to wine but an appropritate term for it would be 'intoxicants'. Otherwise the admonishment would be for only 'wine' in 5:90 and 2:219 - which does not make sense. There is also an other word for it 'sukara' (strong drink)
16:67 - And from the fruit of
date-palms and vines: from it you derive vine/intoxicants as well as
wholesome sustenance -in this, behold, there is a message indeed for
people who use their reason!
As I said, the drink (whatever that is) will 'cover' your senses but the results will not be the same as are on earth.
52:23 - They shall there exchange, one with another, a cup free of frivolity,
free of all taint of ill.
And the items on earth are not exact replica in heaven. 47:15 starts with this phrase "047.015 : (Here is) a <b>'Parable'</b> of the Garden which the righteous are promised:"
Oh...ok - thanks for clarifying the meaning.
So, it does refer to intoxicants. Would I be right in saying then that it promises rivers of intoxicants. If yes, then the question would be: do those intoxicants actually give the intended "high" in paradise ?
Yes it promises intoxicants.. but will have no ill-effects that usually result in all sorts of problems on earth.
lol - mon cher ami postman,
so it does cause intoxication, but does not cause accidents like DUI or brawls - is that what you are trying to say ?
Exactly. just like you are given a Ferrari and full assurance that no accident will be caused.
so intoxication itself is not the problem - meaning if a muslim is sitting by himself in the confines of his home, and does not have a history of behaving unruly when drunk, he can consume alcohol as there is no chance of him causing a brawl or getting into any undesirable situation
As Quran says, their negatives outweigh the benefits so their is an admonishment on their use. I, as a muslim, might not consume it.. some other muslim would be consuming it. Simple.
So then, it is not Haraam - neither in letter nor logically
Cheers babarbhai - you have said you dont drink, but you might change your mind after tasting Paan Liqueur !! bottoms up :-)
That's a secular choice I have made because I find smoking, drinking at. al as unnecessary consumables.....more on lines of Gandhi jee/Sufis;oD
Plant a tree
Good choice :-)