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How can we make Pakistan a better place? - REMOVED
submitted 2 months 29 days 17 hours ago by: Admin : 68 commentsThis post and all it's comments have been deleted, because the discussion was getting no where and personal remarks were passed that are against the policy of BuzzVines.
It is expected of all the members that they should refrain from any personal harsh arguments that are not helping develop a healthy discussion.
The idea behind BuzzVines is to share a news or view and help initiate a debate that should broaden your mind and let you create your own opinion. So please exercise ur right of speech carefully.
Admin @ BuzzVines
Comments
I personally believe in the total freedom of expression. Many of my submissions were censored for "Moral Reasons" in the past (I still wonder why). At that stage I recommended that a special section dedicated to the "stuff" which is found offensive be introduced and the offensive buzzes be placed there. It will then be upto the readers to make a choice to go to that section or not. I think this is a practical approach and will take care of the various divergent views.
Take Care
Dr.Irfan Zafar
hi,
well i agree, as far as freedom of exchanging views are concerned , so we may learn
from each other, which can be beneficial and constructive , so we may improve our
knowledge
thanks
Admin! Come let's reason. Where are you?
How about our letting you off the hook for this one and you jotting down a clear cut censorship policy for us?
Let there be peace. You can see that buzzvines has come to a standstill because of this thing. You can make Amer and AngryYoungMan write a few blogs for you but we all know that this will get this forum really nowhere without some others whom you have chosen to ignore.
Show some grace. Let not absolute power corrupt you. Let not your virtuous stand be the death of buzzvines. Give some! If nothing else, you can agree to giving us a warning before you take off a buzz and then have the buzz conclusively ended without us feeling that our words are in vain.
COME ON!
Admin, you are not responding. Bear some responsibility for the ppl whom you brought together.
It seems like you have lost all focus here! How about telling me that whether we are here or not doesn't matter to you?
I will surely shut up then! Here, take the fifth ammendment.
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
So I am not compelling you to be a witness against yourself. Reserve your rights but either give us some or tell us that you are a dictator in yourself coz all authority for upholding the integrity of this site lies upon you and you alone!
Reason with me!
Iola
All of you, including Khalifah have actually disappointed me greatly although I have genuinely respected all of you, without an exception.
You are right when you say that this place is what it is because of you guys and I could not agree more. Never once have I or any of my team members tried to play God here, which was a remark passed on this latest incident. Had the intention been that, there was a lot that could be done to many a issues raised and comments made here on BuzzVines.
BuzzVines as Khalifah pointed out is a business venture, well it may become some day, but it was not started with the same intention in March (2007) last year that is. It was all initiated on a request of a friend who wanted to vent out against the system and whatever he thought was going wrong around us. Later, after much resistance from me, we agreed on putting Google Ads here, which for Khalifah's and everybody else's information here does not even cover our yearly cost for just hosting (making it live on the web) this platform, let alone the time to develop and add the features that we have here, support by many buzzerz here who have helped us in the start to doing what we wanted to do 'rant', for which I must utterly thank Dr. Irfan Zafar and the continuous monitoring and moderation of this platform that goes into keeping it clean from all the nonsense that you would find on many Pakistani forums.
We have all (not to forget the continuous and timetaking effort in putting beautiful thoughts by members like yourself and Khalifah) put a lot of our time into bringing it where it is right now and seeing it going down with the foul language and lousy comments is definitely the last thing I would like to see happening to this place.
Now coming back to this particular issue, who do you think was behind putting up those lousy comments, wasn't Khalifah, we all know him for quite some time now. And who do you think was in that discussion, that could go the comments against, NOT ME. I was no where there. So it definitely was not a personal thing or playing God here. Now it's not that I have a particular liking or disliking for a particular member here, but we have to retain a standard of discussion here. Someone who was concerned with the quality of the comments made there flagged it and after monitoring it, I found it to be worth taken off. The only issue probably for which I owe all of you an apology is taking the whole post off completely, instead of taking off the particular comments. But at that moment, I felt that if I'd do that the person would re-write all those comments, so I took off the whole discussion, as there was not much fruitful getting out of the discussion going on there.
Every place on the web and on the earth has to go by some rules and regulation otherwise all left would be destruction. So the rules and regulations here. Nothing offensive, nothing obscene and nothing personal will be allowed on this forum. That exactly was the criteria exercised on that Buzz. Although as I admitted before, it was more of comments and not the buzz, but it was deemed necessary by ME that I take off the complete buzz in that instance, for which I have already apologized above.
Now for future.
You tell me, if you are all ok with whatever insane or abusive goes on this forum, you are all ok with it and will still be a part of a it.
If no matter what hateful or offensive remark is passed against anyone of you, no action should be taken, no matter what.
That the freedom of expression and speech should be above all laws of modesty and decency.
If above is all that you need, I will let you all and this forum on your own and resign as Pinky desires. As I for sure will not like to be a part of any such forum, where there is no moderation and anybody is free to use whatever their mind can conceive and hands can write and my personal integrity is at stake.
Dear Admin,
without sending him/her any Warning!! very wrong way!
...
Now you are talking Admin.
Love you indeed for it. This is the way. No problem is eva solved by ignoring it. Mutual respect and trust have to be developed through exchange. You have spoken clearly and nobody here can doubt your intentions. We are proud of you for opening this forum and letting all of us come here. That goes without saying. Maybe that is why our expectations from you are so very high :)
Nobody leaves, neither Khalifah nor you, nor anyone else. We decide things with consensus. We have given a lot of suggestions here for you. We are not against your right to do this. Someone has to exercise that right to let this be a place which all can visit. However, I think that it is time to make a few adjustments in your policy. This would be for the betterment too. Believe me. I believe in growth and there is neva a point at which we are not learning.
I salute you for all that you have said and apologize for terrorizing you so. I couldn't help but fight. I believed in it and in our right to let you know that this was not helping buzzvines. I think as far as I am concerned this is more than I could ask for. I hope Khalifah sees the sincerity and light shining forth from your words.
Thank you indeed!
Do develop a censorship policy too. One that you can send as an attachment to our email addresses. :)
Though I hate having to live by rules and regulations yet I shall abide by them (hopefully). Now cheer up and make sure in the next buzzvines party there is some icecream for me. I love it.
PLUS every mean thing I said to you was to provoke you into breaking the silence. It worked!!
Didn't mean to hurt or offend. Feel guilty and thoroughly apologize. I guess I just committed the biggest sin on planet Earth. Forgive me quick please. What if I die with this on my soul?
Oh forgive me! Come on! Puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez!
Forgiven !
By the way, a policy is already there in the Terms and Conditions put on BuzzVines down at the bottom below, if anyone cared to go through that, A BIG THANKS TO A VERY DEAR FRIEND !
Here is the link
Terms and Conditions of BuzzVines
And it does give the BuzzVines Administration, the right to play God against any of the things I mentioned in my earlier comment !
Admin @ BuzzVines
Yup read it. LOL. Kept wondering when you would bring it up. ;)
That dear friend can be no other than the wicked doc or the dandy Amer or the villainous AYG. SALUTE as PostMan says. :)
I deliberately did not bring it up, as I did not have any intention of being bossy or telling all of you my dear friends that I have that right and you have no right to tell me what to do and what not to do with anything here. But as I said, my intentions never have been to act God and also because I know that you have sincerity towards this platform and all your comments are actually coming from your bond that you have established with this platform and nothing rude is intended. Those terms are for someone who has none of what you all have, genuine love for BuzzVines !
To disappoint you, None of them, actually!
Admin @ BuzzVines
LOL. Lying doesn't come naturally to you. :)
Which part of my comment are you referring to?
If it's the first part, there isn't any lie there. And if it's the second part, then there is neither any there !
Admin @ BuzzVines
Want to believe you so letting go of this. I am a hellcat, remember?:)
oh ho, i made a smiley but still you took it to heart, Zeeshan(i hope its the right name)...i don't want you to resign, not at alll...i just found it hilarious that u dint knew that editing option is no longer available once a chain of reply starts against one comment....
so carry on ur duties but plz do sth to pacify K...he hasn't yet rescinded his decision..
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any
other name would smell as sweet". - William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet.
This is the problem:
"Any objectionable materials or images will be removed instantly and permanently without any prior notification to users. Membership of such users may also be cancelled"
I can understand the above applying in the case of porn and foul language but little else. The Terms need to be modified to include
Objectionable material will be TAGGED (not Flagged) for removal with a warning:
"Admin has tagged this post for removal because (specify reason), the poster is advised to modify comments"
A 24 hour period should be allowed for the buzzer to edit his/her comments
You have apologized for removing an entire Buzz, but that does not prevent you from exercising that authority in the future since "change is the only permanent thing" So we need that included in the Terms and Conditions.
"No buzz shall be deleted in its entirety without due consent from the top ten buzzers which will be obtained via a private message"
Thank you
Khalifah
That is exactly what it was, objectionable use of foul language by one of the users on that Buzz and so an action was taken.
Regarding the TAGGED issue, as mentioned earlier, this venture has not been developed on a purely commercial basis and hence not many a detailed features incorporated in the system. All these features of tagging a particular buzz/comment before it is finally taken off after a certain number of flags is not there and I am not sure how much more time would it take to have any of such features incorporated.
With regards to getting a prior consent from Top 10 buzzerz is again not a very efficient model. It's not as do-able as you are thinking it is. The best that will later tried to be accommodated in the system is the first option of Reporting by a certain number of members.
On another note, there are certain BUZZEZ that altogether need to be taken off, which can be a case of Abusive, Offensive, Personal or Copy/Paste issue. So that will need to be taken care of anyway.
AGREE WITH THIS BUT DISAGREE WITH THE LAST PART OF 10 BUZZERS.
"Any objectionable materials or images will be removed instantly and permanently without any prior notification to users. Membership of such users may also be cancelled"
I can understand the above applying in the case of porn and foul language but little else. The Terms need to be modified to include
Objectionable material will be TAGGED (not Flagged) for removal with a warning:
"Admin has tagged this post for removal because (specify reason), the poster is advised to modify comments"
A 24 hour period should be allowed for the buzzer to edit his/her comments
I don't know how else to tell you all guys. No such functionality for moderation is there as yet and we are not working on this issue at the moment, so I cannot make any commitments as to when will there be any such functionality. Even the next version, which is almost on it's completion stage does not take care of this issue.
Till all that happens, the previous system of Flagging and the buzz or comment going into moderation will work. Anything that is found falling into any of the 5 criteria mentioned below
- Foul language
- Obscenity/ Vulgarity
- Personal attacks
- Copy/ Paste
- Senseless
will be taken off.
I just added the Senseless ones and lucky I saw one such Buzz posted right now. So in this case, the whole Buzz has to be removed. For instance, just look at the Buzz initiated by aliali_81 "How can we solve unemployment problem in Pakistan". The buzz has an image attached to it, which does not make any sense with the Title and has no content in it. There is no purpose of putting this Buzz up there and has just been posted for the sake of posting it. No thought or initiation by the user has been given and the image itself is not even funny enough that itself explains some situation.
In such instances, I do not have any choice but to remove these, as the purpose is to initiate a debate on some topic and not just put questions for the whole world to start thinking about finding answers to those questions.
I will however leave it there for now for you to check and give feedback. I strongly disagree to having these posts, as this is definitely not the purpose of having this platform.
Admin @ BuzzVines
This sounds like AYG. Anyways these things are for your future consideration. I am fine with the understanding that you have shown so far.
Where that aliali thing and post is concerned, there were comments there by PostMan and Taimur that you have removed. Someone might actually have given a viable solution to the problem of unemployment. If the choice of the pic is poor, we could always have asked the buzzer to change it. I don't agree with your approach there. Apologies.
However, this approach of asking us is a good one. This way you will reach a decision that is agreeable to all those involved in this forum. And of course, you have my viewpoint about it too.
Ciao. This has been two maddening days which I want to take out of this buzzvines chapter. Taking a break from you ppl. See you some other day when I am in a better mood. Ta. :)
I too am taking a break now. I invite you all to initiate a Buzz on the issue of Content / Image upload policy and do a small debate on this issue. However, I request you to please be a bit realistic in your wishlist and keep it limited to the standards of practicality and doability. Keep in mind that this might not be something achievable right now, but will definitely be given prime importance in our next to the upcoming version of BuzzVines.
Happy Buzzing to all of you and Khalifah, take any doubts out of your mind that anybody is trying to play Musharraf here. Whatever is done is done in good faith and that is what matters I guess.
Admin @ BuzzVines
Damn it!
Khalifah has gone. You and your dogmatism! How difficult was it to repost the buzz? You readily have given up a man of calibre for your weird moralistc attitude. Congratulations!
This is how our country keeps losing its human capital. You just can't think any better!
Dear All
As I suggested earlier, we need to have a separate section for the content which is found offensive. It will be up to the readers to get into that section of the forum or avoid it.
Having said that, what I feel is that Khalifah, The Admin and all the other members are doing a great job. This site cannot do better if any of the party is not accomodated in a positive way.
Ok, lets try starting a healing process. We seem to have drawn a line (do or die) scenario. I passed through that situation whereas my two submissions (Boy and Girly kissing in a private party in islamabad & Meeras Picture) were removed because of the "morality" concerns. At that time I received a very accomodating mail from the Admin which I agreed to disagree gracefully and continued my writiings. In fact after that I wrote a lot of very controvercial stuff which was not removed.
To start the healing process, I personally request both Khalifah and the Admin to simply take one step back from the line and we can reach a middle way.
Khalifah is contributing on this site in a very positive way. Admin is also doing a great job. There is no ego issue here, and there should not be one. I believe in freedom of speech and expression and won't mind even the most immoral stuff being posted on the site. However in order to take care of cultural/social obligations, we need to put that stuff in some other compartment/section so that the views of all can be accomodated. Having said all that, here are two thoughts:
1. Khalifah you don't need to leave the site. You write great content.
2. Admin you are also doing some great job to let people discuss very controvercial issues. You people just need to sit back and devise a policy to route the controvercial/offensive content to a separate section.
Having done that, I am sure that the issue of freedom of speech and expression can be easily taken care of.
Take Care
Dr.Irfan Zafar
Note: We can also have "Adult" and "Non Adult" sections.
@Admin
This is only my personal view as I as a person who looks at morality, immorality, purity, filth with the same eye. Manto's Disciple :-)
Hasn't been easy so far DOC. I feel like I am talking to the wall.
And I am to a Killer with a Gun in her hand :-)
Do you mean it?
@admin
I've nothing to say except "don't lose top posters like Khalifa and Iola, this place would be a total disaster without 'em"
btw...i 've seen worst enteries that neva caught ur kind attn and are still there then what exactly made u opt for such a drastic move in the name of moderation?
Who said I was going somewhere? I still have more damage to do to the Admin!
So Admin, are you reposting the buzz or not? Is it worth the loss? I wonder what your age is to be so maulviana!!!
Go ahead, flag me!
In all seriousness, do you consider yourself wiser than Khalifah and me? If yes, you are living too high!
I swear if I were you I would have done everything I could to appease him and he is worth every rude and arrogant word I am putting here.
admin is dheet :p
Had he been wrong again I would have neva have been so mad at you Admin but grow up- call a spade a spade.
Good job there PostMan. Am proud of you standing with me.
I have already agreed that the Content/ Image upload policy will be reviewed. Infact it will be the same as it is, because all we take action against is offensive content. However, the content removal policy will be reviewed, revised with changes incorporated from different options recommended by members here. The policy will be published and all actions will be taken accordingly.
I had previously also agreed on the changes that a buzz, blog or comment will not be removed untill there are a certain number of Flags against it, say 5 or 10 or whatever number that may be. And once that happens, the post will automatically be removed and go into moderation. Then it will be upto the moderators if they find it in violation of the content policy, the post will be deleted from the system for good, or will be restored back (as deemed appropriate).
This functionality is not in place as yet, for whatever reason and will probably not be available in the next version of BuzzVines. However, we shall try n see if that can be incorporated in the next version. If not, then this feature will be on the Top Priority list for the next update and will be added before the launch of the subsequent version.
I would like to see all of you in agreement and at peace now. If there are any further suggestions, please put them up here and we shall discuss those as well.
For now, we shall have to go with the policy of a single flag and the post going into moderation, however, I will and all our moderators will take special note of not deleting the Blog or Buzz completely and just editing/deleting the particulat comment in violation of the terms of content.
However, in case of a complete post in violation of the content policy (abusive, offensive, personal attack) or a direct copy/paste without any personal views or explanation, will deserve to be taken off completely.
Hoping to have a consensus on the above.
Happy Buzzing !
Admin @ BuzzVines
Agree with everything you said Admin.. just revive that deleted post... not asking you for anything else...
PostMan, it's something beyond me. Can't help it there SIR !
Admin @ BuzzVines
Iola
Now you are being unreasonable. I have already mentioned it before that the post has been deleted and this action cannot be done, I cannot help it there. Why do you think I would not bring it back and keep shuffling comments with you guys for no reason. You think I am lying to you. Call it a system defect, but it is there. Once a post is deleted, it goes out of the system of BuzzVines and that is exactly what has happened here.
Upon flagging a post, the post still remains in the system for moderation. But as I said, I had deleted the post from moderation thinking it the best resolve at that moment. Now there is no way for me to bring it back.
Hope I have made things clear enough.
Admin @ BuzzVines
Khalifah, I would urge you not to take an aggressive step just out of this action. The Buzz has been deleted and it can be re-produced, and quite frankly, sometimes it's good leave the past in the past. We have not developed this platform to get a kick out of our role as dictators and it's all with the members like yourself that we are at the level that we have achieved.
I HAVE A RAZOR SHARP MEMORY AND THAT WAS YOU ON THE BUZZ OF KHALIFAH. gO CHECK! :)
Iola
Please have some sense. That is clearly a mistake, an error. Don't you get it from the tone of the text. I wanted to type, The buzz has been deleted and it cannot be re-produced.
If I had actually meant to tell him that it can be re-produced, then I would have done that. You think I am lying to you here. I did not expect you pick on me like this.
If you cannot trust me, then why ask for all my explanations and policy revisions and what not. If you actually think that I am not a man of word, then you are not going to get anything out of whatever you ask me to confess or say.
Admin @ BuzzVines
I am beyond picking on ppl. As I said earlier, let's reason. These are very famous words of the biggest conned characters in literature and when arguing one should certainly reason.
It is not about trust or lying or stuff like that, it is about you understanding that Khalifah and his stance are both right. The censorship policy needs to be revised.
As far as the typing error is considered, it surely didn't seem so. If it is so, I apologize for touting you as a liar. As I said earlier and would like to reiterate that didn't seem true in your case. You are too young to be anything but honest.
Anyways what I see here is the need for all of us including Khalifah to get together and evolve a censorship policy healthy to discussions. See handling criticism and abusive or foul language is also an art that we Pakistanis need to develop. We lose everything by getting all emotional when someone presents the other side of the argument. This is another thing we get to learn on this forum. When we adopt a policy of evasion or censorship,we in a way make ourselves as Pakistanis incapable of handling those things. We are not always going to come across ppl who see things our way or Muslims and Pakistanis. The F word is so common abroad and sarcasm and similar things equally. Here if someone abuses you, you would go for their necktie blindly and stop seeing logic, making only a comical picture of yourself, appearing aggressive instead of reasonable and cool. Intolerance instead of tolerance is being made way for.
I shall neva be in favour of censorship yet grace comes naturally to me and there are words and things that I can neva say or use in my dictum, oral or written.
I have seen a positive response from you and appreciate it. I shall not be able to comment on any buzz or blog, until I see Khalifah around. And well, you need not worry-that is my problem and one I should handle on my own.
Be strong and learn to argue till death. At least, this is something that I might have taught you by this long discussion here. By the way, I learnt that from Khalifah. :)
Ciao.
Kool it Guys & Girls. Chill it out. Have fun. Keep going. Love you all
I am cool Irfan so turn off the charm for the moment.
Admin, either your claim to your ability to reproduce the buzz was a lie or what you are saying now is one. I told you lying was not your forte.
Anyways so far so good. The issue has gone beyond the mere buzz and positive input is expected from you. Take it easy and don't SIR or MA'AM us. We are not getting pushed. Age,you know, turns one into steel- soemthing you still need to grow up into. :)
@admin
Someone said "The illitrate of 21st century will not be those who can't read and write but those who can't learn, unlearn and relearn"
Do concentrate dear!
We can't make pakistan a better place to live. But at least we can make it a better place to die.
This discussion has gone way too far and I think for whatever reason, my point is not getting across. So no more comments are going to come from me after this.
I apologize for all the inconvenience caused here to all the valued members and readers of BuzzVines, but all that was done was done in good faith and in the best interest of BuzzVines, all its memebers and readers.
Happy Buzzing !
Admin @ BuzzVines
I think we must move on from this debate. The Admin has cleared his situation and there is no point holding him for what cannot be undone and was done with good intentions for this forum. We all do need some sort of censorship and there is no argument against that.
If at all, the censorship policy can be reviewed for transparency and understanding of all concerned and we're good to go. The Admin has shown that much grace by opening up this debate and having our input on censorship policy. So let's give him and this forum that credit and move on.
My 2 cents.
Adios
Well Iola truly has been a gem, hats off to her for fighting the good fight. I do believe that this episode has empowered the people who truly make this site a great forum - those who post here
This is also a great example of people coming together to effectively enforce change, no guns, no bombs just effective dialogue - just something we can take from here and incorporate in our daily lives.
Special thanks to Iola, Pinky, Irfan, Mianjee and Postman for realizing that this is a worthy cause.