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A critical reading of the Quran
submitted 1 year 3 months 7 hours ago by: befair : 158 commentsThe following document is a collection of my opinions upon reading the Quran. This is on another buzz as well (Does Islam Advocate Violence), but since that buzz has become just too long, I am putting this in a new buzz so my fellow buzzers can have a look without having to go through 3 pages of arguments and counter-arguments.
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Befair – I may suggest that in order to understand Islam you have to shun off your ever biased attitude towards it.
Picking up verses out of context will not serve any purpose but that will surely add to your ignorance. If you want to be critical of Islam – please go ahead but in this course do study it first, simply quoting some misunderstandings of ignorant /biased people undermine your intellect.
India has got a huge population out of which Hindu religion stands in majority, not to forget that Muslims ruled over India for nearly 1000 years. Now my simple question is that if Islam is spread by sword than how come Hinduism, Christians, Buddhism and many other religions had survived through that period ?
Indeed many of your quoted ‘statements’ are very funny as they lack rationalism and reflect complete unawareness to basics of Islam.
Let me ask you one question, do you believe in GOD, The Creator, The Ultimate Divine Power?
Based on your answer to the above I will build my arguments and will try to help you in understanding this Great Religion – surely not through GUNS.
Look dear Islam is the only way to Salvation (Hadiyah) but regretfully I or any other Muslim can not thrust it on to you as it is beyond our JURISDICTION. If you strive for it your self then you may have it God Willing.
BUT Surely I will pray for your Hadiyah.
Muslim rulers did rule india for 1000 years, but the rule was not established for 1000 years. It took 400-500 years to establish muslim rule in india. Mughal rule in india was established in the mid 1500's and lasted until the early 1800's. Indian civilization at that time was far ahead of the civilization in Arabia at that time. Even at the height of the mughal rule, their rule did not extend to ALL of india. The Mughals did try their best to convert people without significantly damaging the economy as they had established their home in india. All of them, with the exception of Emperor Akbar were intolerant towards their non muslim subjects. Look at islamic countries today - what percentage of the population do non muslims make up ? compare this to ANY non muslim country.
Your point of view of any reading of the quran starts with the firm belief that the Quran is a PERFECT book and that Muhammad is a PERFECT human being. There are hundreds of verses that advocate intolerance and violence. But you use the context in the 3-4 verses to pull a veil over your eyes.
I have tried my best to put in the context for the verses. However, it is possible that I may have omitted the full context in a few instances.
Why dont we start by one basic contradiction in the Quran. Allah repeatedly says that bowing down to anyone except him is the biggest crime - worse than murder, rape or genocide. But then, on a whim, asks the angels to bow down before Adam. If you, as a parent, consider rape to be the biggest crime, would you ASK your son to commit rape just on a whim ??
Dear beloved, muslim brother befair, Prostration before God is a sign of submission and worship rendered to him where as a single prostration before Adam signifies the elevation of Adam above all creation. God did not ask the angels to WORSHIP Adam but to simply acknowledge Adam's elevated status.Sorry, no contradiction here.Love, Khalifah
Welcome back khalifah! I was waiting for you on the other buzz and thought that maybe you were no longer interested in virgins and unlimited meat buffets!
Anyways, there are a few verses where I was waiting for your interpretation
FASCISM AT ITS BEST!
048.029 Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them.
Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.
NOT HONORING THE DEAD
009.084 And never (O Muhammad) pray for one of them who dieth, nor stand by his grave. Lo! they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger, and they died while they were evil-doers
YOUR ALLAH CURSES ME ON YOUR BEHALF. SOME TOLERANCE
003.085 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
003.086 How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the messenger is true and after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
003.087 As for such, their guerdon is that on them rests the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined
Dear, beloved muslim brother befair,First of all, was the above answer satisfactory or is there still some lingering doubt in your mind about the supposed 'contradiction' in the Quran? If, it's all clear then we will move onto the next verses that are vexing you
In Allah's mind, the biggest crime is worshipping someone other than himself
Prostrating before someone is representative to worshipping someone, even if once
The punishment for 1 murder is the same as that for a lifetime of murders. Allah is very clear that the crime of worshipping someone else CANNOT be forgiven. Even if you do so only once, you are condemned to hell for eternity!
To me, Allah is still whimsical. Would you ask your son to rape "just once" to establish your supremacy over his life ?
No my dear, beloved, muslim brother, befair, Allah did not ask anyone to 'worship' adam he asked them to 'pay respect' to adam. There is a world of difference. As for asking your 'son to rape'; that would have been a good analogy if Allah had asked the angels to WORSHIP Adam. A peasant bows in front of the the village chief out of fear and subjugation while a stage artist bows in front of the cheering crowd out of modest courtesy. So two similar acts can signify two very different meanings. Are we both on the same page now?LoveKhalifah
Hmm...so what context was it that Allah asked the angels to bow down before Adam ? fear or courtesy ? A simple "bowing down" is different from prostrating. When I touch my mother's feet, that is prostrating. When i bow down before an idol in a temple, that is prostration. So the acts of fear and modesty that you listed out are nowhere in the same context as Allah.
Sorry - not on the same page yet
No my dear, beloved, muslim brother, befair, The peasant story is just to highlight for you that a simple act such as bowing can have two different meanings similarly when God asks his angels to bow to Adam he is not telling them to worship Adam. The act of bowing to Adam by the angels is an acceptance on their part that in the eyes of God, Adam has a higher status than them. It does not mean that they are to hence forth worship him. Your point would have been valid if God had asked the angels to worship man or to regularly prostrate before Adam
So if Adam has a higher status as compared to the angels, it is ok for them to bow down to him. Your god also says that men are higher than women, so it is ok for a muslim woman to prostrate ONCE before men ? just to accept the superior status of men ?
No my dear, beloved, muslim brother, befair, in the case of angels, and what little the Quran tells us about them, they are physically far superior to man both in size and abilities so there was a need to let them become aware that despite their apparent advantages man was superior to them. But in the case of women the differences are not that exaggerated.By the way, there is an instance of several people prostrating before a prophet! I'll let you find that one on your own :)
Befair and Khalifah, I think its time for me to add few comments to this discussion despite of my very tight schedules.
Allah to ask angels to bow down before Adam had many aspects eg.
Like Khalifah mentioned earlier Allah wanted to establish once for all that despite having many ‘physical limitations’ Adam was far more superior than Angels, Jins and whole lot of HIS creation. (as it was the WILL OF ALLAH).
Secondly to have an un- revoke able evidence that Satan was not among the obedients. (rather an opportunist as he refused to prostate).
Third to identify Satan as eternal enemy of Adam as there tug of war would continue till the final HOUR.
Allah has granted a superior office to men as compared women (means more obligation and accountability for men – nothing to cheer about). May be for this very reason man is made physically ‘strong and sturdy’ than woman. However despite being so ‘authoritative’ and ‘honored’, on the day of Judgment an ‘oppressed wife’ had the full authority and privilege to send him into hell fire because of atrocities he committed to her. (Indeed Allah is FAIR and JUST).
Befair – believe me ‘I or we’ have not set this criteria / differentiation . This is set by Allah Almighty, perhaps this time to see who is more ‘obedient’ among the humans to accept HIS criteria and act accordingly. Whether we follow the path of Adam – who strived for Eden by seeking repentance or we follow the foot steps of Satan – who of his ‘FREE WILL’ chose Eternal Hell.
Befair – lets admit that we have very limited ‘Free Wills’ in this world. Our coming to this world, time, place, paternity, our own facial and physical characteristics - our intelligence, childhood, youth then old age life and finally departing from this materialistic world etc. etc. there are a million factors like these which we can not think of- where in we do not have any ‘say’.
My dear it is all about submitting to Allah’s Will rather than denying or arguing, remember we are not the first one nor the Last, who intend to put up a losing fight.
Even if we argue, like our physical characteristics - having two heads, five eyes, two wings , life span of two hundred years, bla bla and bla. Interestingly even by doing so we confess to our ‘limited powers and privileges'.
I hope may be now you can understand why Allah asked Angels to bow down before Adam on HIS COMMAND.
Coming back to the original topic ‘A critical reading of the Quran’, I sincerely encourage you to be critical as much as you want to be but for this you have to read Quran first until you read it yourself and try to understand it with out being biased you can not decide what is true or false.Even to reject Islam you have to ‘be-fair’. See if you could do this favour to yourself. May Allah have mercy on you, me and all of us.
How is man superior to the angels when god himself says that he wont even talk to men except through angels ? could you direct me to the sura which explicitly says that humans are superior to angels ?
Surah Tin for one
can u paste the number and text of that verse?
Surah 95
"..created man in the best of moulds..."
Also, 2:30-35
" I will create a vicegerent on Earth..."
incidentally these verses also explain why man has a higher status....because he has an unlimited ability and capacity to learn whereas the angels seem to lack this ability
Surah 2 talks of a viceroy for earth. Obviously, the angels are not limited to this earth so there can really be no comparison between the two in this verse
Suran 95 talks of man being created in the best of moulds - doesnt say that the angels are not of the same mould. Incidentally mould is used for something made of clay, which the quran says, god used to create man only, not angels. Again, no comparison
These are two verses which praise man, but do not explicitly confer a higher status on man as compared to angels. The quran is crystal clear however, that god cannot talk to man except through angels. If man is not even fit for god to talk to, how can he be above the angels.
Curcumstantial vs direct context, my friend. Not convincing enough
Befair: "The quran is crystal clear however, that god cannot talk to man except through angels."
Not just angels..
42:51 - It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by
inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with
Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.
Lest you forget; the prostration seals the deal, my beloved muslim brother :)
Allah's whims, through this prostration is the subject here, not the other way around !
Befair wrote earlier:
‘How is man superior to the angels when god himself says that he wont even talk to men except through angels ? could you direct me to the sura which explicitly says that humans are superior to angels ?’Angels used to bring revelations and other commandments from God to the Chosen Men down on the Earth, you can say they were more like postman. While Angels do not have the power to disobey or act sluggishly to God’s commands - they are absolutely obedients. Chapter-66O ye who believe! Save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who flinch not (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded. (6) While we humans have the option to choose between the good and evil, for which we are accountable. (indeed making of righteous choice and then to act accordingly has granted us the superior status over angels) Chapter-91 By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; (7)And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right; (8)Truly he succeeds that purifies it, (9)And he fails that corrupts it! (10)
(sorry earlier it got scrambled) reposting it below...
Befair wrote earlier:
‘How is man superior to the angels when god himself says that he wont even talk to men except through angels ? could you direct me to the sura which explicitly says that humans are superior to angels ?’
Angels used to bring revelations and other commandments from God to the Chosen Men down on the Earth, you can say they were more like postman. While Angels do not have the power to disobey or act sluggishly to God’s commands - they are absolutely obedients.
Chapter-66O ye who believe! Save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who flinch not (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded. (6)
While we humans have the option to choose between the good and evil, for which we are accountable. (indeed making of righteous choice and then to act accordingly has granted us the superior status over angels)
Chapter-91 By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; (7)And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right; (8)Truly he succeeds that purifies it, (9)And he fails that corrupts it! (10)
LOL ! Read the Quran. Iblis was an angel that disobeyed Allah and was punished!
LOL - could you plz specify the verse in Quran - which says so- In case you can not and you will not Insha Allah, Then i will let you of my reference.
Befair – okay let me help you in correcting your misconception about Iblis.
18 : 50 - Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": they bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? and they are enemies to you! evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! (50)
If you are OK with above then I shall move on to the next point which may be you have quoted inadvertently.
lol - you need to read what you write:
'Behold! We said to the angels" - is this god addressing the angels or jinns as well. The way this is written, it is clear that God is asking the angels to prostrate.
If god has not asked the Jinns to prostrate, they why would he punish Iblis for not prostrating. If Iblis was a Jinn, then he is not expected to prostrate anyways since Allah's whimsical command was never addressed to him !!
Dear Befair I wished if you had read some back ground of the whole incident that would have resolved the simple issue for you.
Anyways, as asserted by Quran, verily Iblis was from the Jinns, however he posed before Allah that he was as pious and obedient as were Angels (despite having the ‘genetic’ character of Jinns). So since it was the ‘whim’ of God to expose his malicious intentions, therefore he was apparently elevated to join the lot of Angels.
So when God asked Angels for prostration he defied – and thus established a credible evidence against himself i.e. ‘Not worthy to join the pure and obedients’, one important point to remember is that like Humans, Jinns too have the freedom to choose between good and evil.
Now you must read the verse once again to catch the clue:
18 : 50 - Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": they bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? and they are enemies to you! evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! (50)
Again - the command is directed towards the angels, not the Jinns. Unless Iblis fooled your "all knowing" allah into believing that he was obedient like the angels. Isnt your Allah supposed to know what is in the heart ?? or was he, at that moment, gullible enough to be fooled by a mere Jinn
Anyways, the point of this discussion was to find a reason for your Allah's whimsical command to the angels to bow down before Adam and in that process break one of the basic tenets of islam which is to not prostrate before anyone except God. To that end, it doesnt matter whether Iblis was an angel or a jinn.
If superiority was a factor in the angels bowing down before adam, then women should bow down before men too since your Allah has deliberately created them inferior to men !!
Brother indeed no one can fool All Knowing Allah but except himself.
HE knows what is in the heart of any individual however HE did not hold them accountable and punish them instantly. You know WHY ?
It is so because like Iblis he is giving the people a fair chance to rethink about their foolish acts and seek repentance from HIM, for which HE is ever forgiving and merciful.
Prostration of Angels to Adam was not meant to worship him but simply to admit that Adam was superior to whole ‘lot’ as declared by Allah. Though they were aware of the ‘deficiencies and limitations’ of Adam but yet they prostrate because it was the ORDER of ALMIGHTY ALLAH.
Further to understand before the final revelation (QURAN) prostration (for respect and honor but not for worship) was accustomed in different parts of the world. Upon the final
Revelation even this was prohibited for showing honor and respect to humans (husband, wife, parents, king etc.) or any other creature. In Islam it’s divine right of ALLAH ALMIGHTY only.
Surely Allah has sole discretion to create what so ever HE wishes for because HE is THE LORD.
35: 01 - Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels messengers with wings, two, or three, or four (pairs): He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things. (1) Finally my dear hold your heart to read next…………..Allah has not created women as inferior, in many instances she is more privileged and respected as compare to men. Now if women are ignorant of that then no body is to be blamed but except themselves. Allah does not do Injustice indeed it is people who do so……..
The quran itself says that women are created one level lower than men and yet you claim equality !!
Ever forgiving and merciful! eternal and sadistic torture for non-muslims. Harsher punishment for women as compared to men. Rape of women slaves - i have listed all these in the google document.
Instant punishment is not there in the quran only because Muhammad did not have the originality to not pick up that concept from the bible!
You are not even permitted to give respect to those that are dead. You curse non-muslims just because of their faith. Your allah tortures non muslims eternally with boiling water and fire and yet you call him merciful !
Hold your guns dear, I will deal with all of the statements which you have made but turn by turn. As I have tried to clarify the issue of Iblis / prostration similarly the other misconceptions will also be answered – to help you in understanding Islam better (regardless you are Muslim, Christian Hindu or else).
But do remember, as I have already written earlier, I cannot and will not thrust any thing on you. It is a mere discussion in which message of Allah is being forward to you in an amicable manner. You accept it –its your benefit. You reject it – You will be answerable to HIM not me.
Now - Imagine you have a slave / teenage son for that matter, you feed him and fulfill all of his legitimate needs of life, you try groom him in a good manner. Despite all of above if he does not obey you, does not give you the due respect, wont listen to you, refute you all the times, bent upon to do every bad thing from which you try to stop him.
Will not you get angry with him? Won’t you punish him for his betterment ?
Irrespective of how much you love and care about him, when his misconduct will cross the limits or your patience you will punish him accordingly and may be with every incident you too will increase the degree of punishment. (not to forget that you have a very ‘Limited Authority’ over your son – thanks to today’s liberal approach – ITS MY WORLD - MY LIFE).
With respect to GOD, see how generous and affectionate he is …
You cannot tolerate arrogance of your slave / son after few incidents while he is so
Forgiving and Merciful that he has given you relaxation – to seek repentance- till ‘you’ breath your last (average life expectancy is 65 years).
Failing to avail this relaxation deserves the befitting punishment by any standard. God has revealed all such ‘warnings’ not only in Quran but also in old and new testaments. Particularly in Quarn, God has clearly mentioned all the reasons and desired expectations resulting due to our existence on this planet and life cycle.
Look HE has offered us an excellent deal – perform good deeds with respect to HIM and people of earth, for a very short period of say sixty five years or so not for thousands of years-
Fulfilling the above, is the reward of Eternal life in Paradise , failing to above is ever miserable life of Hell.
A Just and Fair Deal……. Isn’t it ????
Now if arrogant people insist to keep a deaf ear towards such clear message then only they themselves are to be blamed.
While God is AL-REHMAN and AL-RAHEEM.
hmm. Ok
Now, let me assume for a moment that Islam is the only right way to get to God.
How does a child born in a hindu village in india brought up in a 100% hindu community learn about islam ? I am assuming that your God also creates hindus and not only muslims - how does that "unenlightened" child get to the "right" path ? why should that poor child be subjected to eternal hell for no fault of his. If anyone is to blame for that child going to hell, it is your Allah for bringing him/her to earth in a hindu family and then sadistically torturing him/her eternally for being a hindu!!
How do you see that in any way other than fascist and hate filled ??
"To every soul has been given the criterion to judge between wrong and right" The conscience, that is. If the child has not come across Islam by the time he reaches adulthood (hard to believe in this day and age) even then he is accountable since very little reasoning on his part can lead him to conclude the oneness of God just as prophet Abraham, in the midst of idolators, concluded that only one God exists.
Even you have stated that most Hindu's believe in one God and the idols are mere personification of his attributes, so why not worship that one God instead of his attributes?
lol! "very little reasoning on his part can lead him to conclude the oneness of god" - that could compete for the most unreasonable statement of the year!
If your Allah is the master of all, then why is he testing hindu kids more than you "born" muslims ?? there arent any additional virgins or crab meat buffets promised for those that had to uproot their entire lives inorder to prepare their minds for islam or to harden themselves to wantonly kill non-muslims.
If he is all powerful, then why is he allowing kids to be born in hindu families ? why is he giving you an easier path as compared to the poor "born" infidel kid ?
How easy is it for you to see that your Allah is nothing more than a fascist slave master who hates anyone other than muslims and also exhorts the believers to ensure that islam is the only religion on the planet. Now dont come back to the two verses which talk of peace and tolerance where there are more than a few dozen that advocate violence.
Why would a hindu kid want to adopt islam after reading about slave rape and the eternal torture verses ? what are you offering me other than a return to the barbaric ages ?
Please dont tell me that fear of boiling water and fire for eternity is the reason why I should convert to islam - that, in today's world seems more like the cheap threat of nothing more than a hoodlum or a cult leader, however big the cult may be !
May I also add that Hitler was also one among the millions of peace loving germans that "saw" the "clear" threat the jews posed to the country and world !, so were Mussolini and Stalin in their own contexts!
The same reason that one person is born in a rich family while another in a poor family. The same reason why one person has a hundred kids while the other dies pining for a single one
The same reason...."He saith be and it is"
Also, we have gone over this a million times; no matter how Allah will punish the polytheists; he has not given muslims the right to kill or punishnon-believers on account of their denial of God
Well - the person born in a rich family does not get tortured eternally because of his birth...or the one with the hundred kids. This is different and your ALLAH wills it. If he gives me step motherly treatment, or rather openly declares enmity against me, what incentive do i have to join you in his slavery ?
You are basing your "peaceful" arguments on the two or three verses in the Quran which, if you look at their chronology, were from mecca where Muhammad was not powerful enough. There are hundreds of other verses which advocate aggression. If your Allah was peaceful and tolerant, why would he decree that no non-muslim should ever set foot in Mecca ?
The christians and jews were living in Arabia without any significant confrontation with the pagan arabs ? how do you explain that ? if the arab idol worshippers were so violent and intolerant, why would they let the christians and jews live happily amongst them ? why did the cycle of violence start only once islam came into the picture ?
Read the story of Khaibar from Bukhari where it is very clear who is the aggressor. If your master is so violent and full of hatred, and his messenger was the aggressor in most of his battles, then how can you claim to be any different?
You have yourself stated that you do not respect my religion, you consider me a criminal only because I am not of your faith. How do you expect any non-muslim to believe you when you say that you are "peaceful" ? your ilk is quiet today in america only because you dont have sufficient numbers. Your 1400 year mentality has kept you from acquiring the technology that keeps the non muslim world ahead of you. You believe in an ideology that opely calls for you not to befriend non muslims and you CHOOSE to be a hypocrite whilst living among infidels in America. How low can you fall ?
What are you going to do now Khalifah ? disappear on me like you did when I asked these very questions on earlier Buzzes ? and come back once that topic has passed and make me write this all over again ? a million times !!
I am still waiting to see your "defence" on the inherent cursing in the Quran on YOUR behalf directed towards non-muslims. You seem to have disappeared on that buzz as well
There aren't ANY verses that encourage muslims to wage war against non-muslims without any provocation.
God does not give anyone step motherly treatment in this world; it is for the hereafter that he reserves such treatment
Jews, Christians living in peace?? Ever heard of Dhu Nawas and Calib? Also, Jews were at constant war with Christians and were actually uprooted from Mecca and Medina more than once. The Persians too uprooted both Jews and Christians, however, no word from you on that. The Jews that were expelled from Mecca and Medinah were the ones who fought against the Muslims. In subsequent Muslim empires both Jews and Christians THRIVED and were extremely successful
Up until the 16th-17th Century Muslims were by far the most advanced nation, that would make it their 1100 year old mentality quite modern. The only reason Muslims lost thier empire is because through constant warfare, the Europeans perfected the art of war and that coupled with the lucky 'discovery' of gun powder they were able to overthrow the Muslim empires.
The fact that muslims did not wipe out non muslims when they had the chance pours water over your childish theory that once muslims gain power they will kill non muslims
If your argument is that Muslims are violent because of Islam then I wonder how come you haven't spoken out against Christianity and Judaism. Their scripture CLEARLY ask them to wipe out non believers and just in the last couple of centuries they have killed millions upon millions of people around the world....most in the name of religion.
Red Indians: Untold millions in North and South America
Slave Trade: 15 million (killed not traded)
First World War: 15 million
Russian Civil war: 9 million
Second World War: 55 million
to name a few. We wont even count the death toll from the hundreds of conflicts of the cold war.
Why don't you chastise the them?
For your reference:
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
11: And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
12: And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
13: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15: Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16: But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Yes, christian and jewish sciptures are similar to islam, but most of them have grown out of these scriptures and have embraced better moral and human values. Do you find any western country that follows biblical teachings ? do you find them quoting from the bible ? they have evolved their religions to conform to current society whereas islam hasnt. They are not stuck to the bible as muslims are stuck to the quran. Do you know which is the second largest "religion" in the US ? it is atheism, and which religion do you think these atheists come from ? christianity. The christians that have not given up on religion consider their religion to be a component of life, not the other way around like Muslims
So, even if the books are similar, the people that these books target are vastly different. You start defending even the most violent and absurd verses from the quran whereas most of my christian friends will take criticism with an open mind and try to improve their outlook. So there is really no point comparing christianity to islam
A lot of my christian friends from work have visited hindu temples and prayed as we do inspite of the fact that their "book" does not allow them to. They respect my religion unlike you and dont consider my faith to be inferior to theirs - again, unlike you
Please dont tell me that the russian civil wars and the world wars were faith based wars. I cant believe that you can even suggest that the cold war was a faith based war!!
I am more bothered about today rather than what happened 200 years ago. As of today, the west is much more open and that is because of the mainly christian populace that still tolerates hypocrites like you in their midst inspite of your agenda being to somehow convert them to islam. You, even as of today, living in the west and enjoying all the freedoms it has to offer, have no friendship towards them - WHY ? because your quran says so. That is the difference
And anyways, you cant justify the wrongs in the quran by pointing fingers at any other holy book. That is like justifying the taliban massacares by pointing fingers at the US drones! if islam was a non violent and all embracing religion, it should be able to stand on its own feet, which sadly, it is nowhere near to.
And muslims did try their best to wipe out the non muslim world...it is just that they were UNABLE to. They were beaten back from europe and were also unable to capture all of India. Look at the middle east. Except for lebanon, which other muslim country can boast of a non muslim population of any significance. Take your cradle of islam for example, saudi arabia. They implement quranic laws verbatim. Even you would not want to go and live there!
Seriously, befair, are you trying to prove your ignorance?
1. The cold war was purely a conflict between "One nation under God" and the "Godless monsters" - Reagan. Pick up any speech from that era and you will see nothing but "God" against the "evil empire" or the "Great Crusade"
2. The second world war was fought primarily among Christian Europeans. By the way, there is a also a book by Eisenhower (hope you know who that was) called the "Crusade in Europe"
3. Pick up ANY Jewish source and you will see that the Islamic era was a boon to Judaism and a time wherein they flourished. The same is true for Christian minorities in muslim lands. This would not be the case if the muslims were bent on extermination.
4. "But most of them have grown out of these scriptures and have embraced better moral and human values " - The last 8 years have certainly proved that point haven't they?
But most of them have grown out of these scriptures and have embraced better moral and human values " - The last 8 years have certainly proved that point haven't they?
Khalifah, could you enlighten befair about 'crusades and armagaden'. a 'tongue slip '
of Bush, Donald rumsfeld and Dick Cheney during the second Iraq War.
Cmon Khalifah ! dont compare the world wars or the cold war to the islamic wars or the crusades. The world wars were mainly between christian countries and werent even wars based on catholicism vs protestantianism. They were pure power wars. Polliticians may use whatever language they want, but do you really believe that the vast majority of christians in this country believed that the soviets were against their GOD JESUS ??
That way, pakistan and all pakistanis are terrorists because of their government's never ending support to the insurgencies in south asia! learn to differentiate between politics and religion. If america had followed the bible, your quran has already committed blasphemy by declaring that jesus is not the son of god - that would be justification enough to kill all muslims in america!
The last 8 years of bush were no doubt a significant blemish on america's standing in the world, but that is due to foreign policy blunders. It really wasnt a bible vs quran war.
If the jews flourished, then it was due to their own ingenuity and the business acumen that they have displayed wherever they went - you cant give islam credit for them flourishing. In fact, I would say that they flourished despite Islam. They flourished despite the dhimmi laws that your Allah and Prophet propogated against them. To put it plainly, they paid your Allah's hordes extortion money (Jizya) in return for sparing their lives and went about growing their businesses and left you guys to ponder over the quran day and night which you are still doing today!
No western country supports unification of church and state today. The laws in the US and most western countries are a result of decisions made by current society, not from the bible. The bible does not brook any blasphemy against itself, but the state protects the right to freedom even if you are openly criticising the bible. Lets see you do that in a muslim state.
All this kinda tells me that you consider today's effort by the west as a war against islam. Am i right in understanding you here ?
And as i said before, if islam is a peace loving and all-enveloping religion and the only way to God, it should be able to stand on its own feet, without pointing to other books
And you have again sidestepped the issue of your Allah cursing non-muslims on YOUR behalf on my other buzz. Are you still digging for some miraculous "interpretation" of "curses" to somehow justify another instance of hatred propogated by your Allah ?
Sorry to say hatred is not in Allah but in your self, you have miserably failed to realize why you are born, probably you want to live in a world where no rules exist.
Your accusations befits to that of thief who argues and curses policeman whenever he is caught red handed.
If you want to talk of love and peace then why there is so hatred and anxiety in your writing, coupled with ignorance. If you blame GOD of unfairness then why don’t you ask your million gods to do justice and wipe out the opponents?
Let the peace prevail in the universe as per Divine Laws, by the way your religion boast to exist on this planet for some what ten thousand years from now and as per some statements nearly a million year or so. Why not your gods have eradicated all the evils in this span.
Are not they divine powers? Are not they capable of delivering? Why a hindu is born plathe (Shurda) and other one pure (Brahmun) ? why this un justice ???
Read your Bhugwat Geeta , etc.– have not you come across the statement relating to arjun – to fight and wage merciless war for honor and truth other wise he would be labeled as IMPOTENT? Is this the religion of peace your are talking about?
It is very easy to criticize but very difficult to deliver.. Only Islam has got the power and sustainability to deliver. That is why despite muslims are oppressed around the globe, people from various cults and religions are embracing Islam ( Not due to fear of sword but to its beauty of being nizam-e-hiyat).
You have failed to understand the functioning of the human life cycle its norms . You have failed to register your existence on this planet while standing in the sea of population. Your current set of rules hold no validity or rationalism. Its more like why to have police department? Why there is day and night? You are arguing against the Divine system of which you cannot disassociate yourself.In Islam hatred is for evil doers, for mischief creators and for infidels because despite seeing the signs all around and with in themselves they stick to their ignorance and arrogance.
I will not defend any verse from any hindu religious text that advocates or promotes the caste system. In india, the caste system has been officially outlawed. The caste system still exists in the hinterland, but NO ONE, including hindus defend the caste system. This is quite unlike you muslims that defend the most absurd and violent verses from the Quran - that is the difference
If you read the bhagavad gita, it talks of caste by deeds, not birth. Yes, there are other religious texts that do advocate the caste system. Then there is the manusmriti which competes with your quran in oppressing women, but these books do not form part of the mainstream hindu religion practised in india. Most hindus do not even know about the existence of these books. There are zealots in hinduism as well, but they cannot and do not claim support from the Bhagavad Gita for their deeds.
As for the violence in the Bhagavad Gita, if you have read it, it is a story about Pandavas vs Kauravas. It is simply a fight to regain one's right that has been snatched away from him. The bhagavad gita does not advocate violence based on belief. The quran always quotes "unbelievers" rather than "enemies". The hadiths are also full of aggressive wars fought by Muhammad, a notable one being the battle of Khaibar. At the end of the Mahabharata, there is no mass conversion of the vanquished. There is no mass capture of women and children and their trysts with slavery and rape - again, unlike the Quran
I am not the one saying that Hinduism is the only way to god. I believe that even an atheist, if he/she does good on this earth, is equally deserving of getting a place in paradise (not the one with virgins and unlimited meat buffets). I believe that religion is merely a path to God and that no path is superior or inferior to the other. That is the reason why I am so touchy about the Quran as it clearly advocates discrimination based on faith which only a sadistic fascist ruler can do.
The hatred is not in my writing, but in the quran itself - in the verses that I have listed out here as well as in my online document post.
As to why my god(s) have not eradicated all evil from this planet - I dont know. No one knows why evil exists on this planet, but it is up to us humans to eradicate as much as we can and discriminating against people purely based on their faith is EVIL. Your quran itself says that worshipping anyone other than Allah is bigger than any other crime - including rape, murder and genocide. If that does not speak about the self-centered nature of your Allah, then what does ?
For people embracing islam - the sales tour that they are given doesnt include the gory verses. Have you ever concentrated on the quality and background of the people that are targeted ? The sales people that sell islam to these hapless converts compare islam with christianity and judaism. Obviously, the Quran is better in its treatment of women and general behaviour as compared to these books simply due to the fact that it is more modern and also due to the fact that Muhammad needed to make the new religion palatable to all sections of people, especially the slaves and lower class people as these are always the target in any conversion process. What the converts are not told about is that Islam is still stuck in a 1400 year mindset whereas all other religions have moved on. Take for example, slave rape - this was common practice 1400 years ago. Slaves were raped and then "rented" out too. Islam brought about a "better" system by mandating that slave women cannot be rented out for money while still retaining the right for the slave masters to rape their slaves. This was no doubt better than what existed at that time, but is barbaric by today's standards.
Your statements lack rationale, ( The caste system still exists in the hinterland, but NO ONE, including hindus defend the caste system.) Let me show you the mirror, you must be aware of ‘ mundal commsision’, in 1991 I was in India , New Delhi, when riots broke out between Upper class hindus and lower caste. Who were those NO ONE, what they were fighting for in actual. The ill of caste system invariably persist in India. While only Islam can eradicate this ill from any society. you can see a black person standing right next to a white, rich to a poor, standing in one row, foot by foot, shoulder to shoulder while praying to GOD five times a day. This is the beauty of Islam, this is what GOD wants from humans- (to see who obey and who stand apart arrogant as Iblis)
It is wise of you that you readily accepted the low criteria of your religious scriptures. As I was going to add few more names eg. Vedas ( rig veda, Upanishads etc. etc.).
Anyways, here I must point out to the people of Buzz that you have no authentic awareness about Islam, relating to its principles and teaching.
Most of your apparent arguments are mere ‘Cut and Paste’ exercises. Where in you neither read Quran for understanding the actual contexts nor you tried to seek clarification from some authentic sources other than ignorant and biased people.
1400 years ago Islam took a commendable step to eradicate slavery from human societies. Befiar – if you know a little about Quran then you will not waste a moment in endorsing my statement… and if your ever biased attitude has refrained you from seeking any knowledge ( which I believe is the case) then MAY GOD have his mercy on YOU while I will try to solve your problem.
GOD is the ultimate creator, HE has defined HIS own rules, which are indeed flawless, where as your scriptures are publication, resulting due to many editings and exclusions.
For more than 1400 year Quran stood in its original text and form (no omissions, no additions) chapter by chapter, word by word. Can you show/ pine point any ‘disorder’ in this regard.
I dare you for this. Only the True Divine Scripture can have this attribute.
Since ONE GOD is the ultimate creator therefore it is his divine right, HE can do what so ever HE pleases. While rest of the whole ‘lot’ is his creation therefore their opinion do not bear any weight age. However despite having the sole discretion our GOD is Just and Fair. HE is ever Forgiving and Kind towards his creation.
I feel sorry for you when you wrote “No one knows why evil exists on this planet,”
This statement indicates that you never try to ponder about your existence on this planet, or existence of life on this planet, You never thought about life and death, you never figure out from where you came and where you are heading to? What would be the out come or would there be any?
As you wrote, If every body is ‘right’ and all the path leads to paradise regardless of their terrain , length and route. Then why same principle is not applied in your day to day life.
A batch of 30 students study whole year in a class, at the end of academic year they take examination – some one secures full marks, some attain good marks while a few got flunked…….. Why you have positions, merit? Why not every body gets promoted? Why every one is not hired by top companies? Why do their salary packages differ? Is not all above unfair and unjust?
A very simple question, why not all humans have same height, same color, same features so on and so forth ????
My dear GOD has defined his own criteria and informed people through various revelations where in Quran is the Last and Final edition. Whether one likes it or not , he will be judged by this book and His verdict will be final and Last.
In my next post I will try to clarify your misconception about slavery – That too form Quran.